Domination & Submission
Topic: Safe Words and Issues of Trust
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Welcome to SPOTLIGHT ON D&S, a FORMAL CO in
which we discuss topics of interest to D&S practicers (and, what the heck,
fantasizers). Just a reminder: if you have a question, please type ?. If
you have a comment, please type !. You'll be called upon in turn. At the
end of your question or comment, please type ga.
Tonight, we'd like to discuss an issue that has once again reared its head
in the message section: SAFEWORDS and other issues of trust. We've seen
that the estimable Master Red Dawn and the winsome Allysse have had words
on this in the messages. Would either of you care to speak out now? ga
(12,MRD) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Please go ahead, MRD! ga
(12,MRD) Thank you. I might as well put the issue and take the heat
(grin). My position on safe words is simple and it is based on many, many
years of experience. Safe words have, in my view, no purpose that is
worthwhile and that is not handled much better by other forms of commun-
ication. They do, however, have the very negative effect of giving a
submissive person the false feeling that he or she has the ultimate
ability to stop a dominant person from doing whatever. In short, if you
want a dominant to stop something, they may or may not stop, same as with
a safe word. But at least you won't feel that you have an absolute veto
power over the dominant that, in fact, you may not. Don't trust to a safe
word--ever! If you don't completely trust your dominant and still wish to
submit to him or her, then make sure that someone checks on you regularly.
THAT may help, but a safe word will not. I thank you, and now let the
good times roll. ga
(12,Warren G.) !
(12,:: Allysse ::) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Warren, please make your comment. ga
(12,Warren G.) Thanks. I believe that a safe-word is just a matter of
trust and that if the trust is not there anyway, words don't work. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Very well put! Allysse, you have a comment?
ga
(12,:: Allysse ::) I see the safe word as a necessary evil in a new
relationship until the two people, especially the Dom, can read the sub.
Not all Doms can read a sub like one who has practiced for a long time.
It is not a stop all: it is just a security blanket, not to control from
the bottom but to start the communication. As the trust grows then the
word will no longer be meeded. ga
(12,Warren G.) ?
(12,MRD) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse. Warren, you have a
question? ga
(12,Warren G.) Yes, thanks. Ally -- Are you saying that this is a
security situation that is needed for a D&s relationship or for a D&s
activity that is not a relationship ? ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, do you wish to answer? ga
(12,john h.) ?
(12,:: Allysse ::) Basically in the not lifestyle type of relationship or
in the early beginnings of a lifestyle where two people meet over this
media for instance. GA
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks! MRD!!! You have a comment? ga
(12,Warren G.) !
(12,MRD) Yes. Look, folks, there is a very important point here that
is being obscured. And it's not impossible that someone's life may
depend on it someday. The idea of a safe word, as I have always under-
stood it, is that when the submissive person speaks such a word, the
events end right there. Whatever is going on stops. There is an almost
magical belief this will happen that is very, very misleading. How about
this? If someone is pushing you too far, no matter if they know you well
or not, if it is lifestyle or not, say something like "That hurts too
much," or "I'm scared," or whatever is the damn _truth_ of the situation
as opposed to some magical incantation called a safe word. Actually
_saying_ something gives the other person the information needed to help
him or her make what is often a quick decision and is always an important
decision. Now, what advantage does a safe word have over actually saying
something? I'll answer that (grin). I can think of one small one, maybe.
That a short word, uttered suddenly, may get the attention of the other
person where something else wouldn't. Frankly, however, I don't think
that's likely, and the dangers of that pathetic belief in the power of a
magic word are very serious. ga
(12,Kay B.) !
(12,Tom and lori) ?
(12,:: Allysse ::) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! John H, you have a question? ga
(12,john h.) Asked and answered I think....both "sides" seem to aproach
the issue of communication from slightly different directions. The only
advantage of a safe word I can see is telling the difference between
"Don't..........Stop !" and "Don't Stop". What do you think is best at
the very beginning of a relationship? This sub is still looking. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) We'll see what everyone has to say, John.
Warren, you have a comment? ga
(12,Warren G.) Yes, thanks, a rather long one. First -- safe words are
often not remembered in the heat of the situation, and one of the things
I do when I am DOM is to check in a way that is both staying TOP and
monitering the emotions and feelings of the sub. I believe that MRD is
right: honest communication is far SAFER and more important. If a person
is in the role of a DOM they are there because they have a deep sense of
the energy and honesty of the people they are in contact with and should
be able to tell the difference between DON'T ..... STOP and DON'T STOP!
ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Warren! Kay B, you have a comment?
ga
(12,Kay B.) Thanks. It seems to me that in the heat of the activity, even
a very observant dom can get carried away. The safe word, has no magic,
but it can become a clear and unambiguous signal between the partners, to
stop. It seems best to me, when that word is not one that is normally
used during the D/s activity, so that it cannot be misunderstood. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Kay! Tom & lori, you have a
question? ga
(12,MRD) !
(12,Tom and lori) Yes, thank you. Isn't it possible for a "safeword" to
possibly be misused in the beginning of a relationship where the limits of
the activities are still being explored? How would someone in a new
relationship begin to understand their limits and still expand them? ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Perhaps someone will comment on that, Tom &
lori. Allysse, you have a comment? ga
(12,:: Allysse ::) Tough one
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, was that your comment? ga
(12,:: Allysse ::) excuse me I have an interruption here with one of the
kids
(12,:: Allysse ::) go ahead
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Okay, we"ll get back to you. MRD, you have a
comment? ga
(12,MRD) Yes. What kay pointed out was what I had in mind when pointed one
possible advantage to a safe word. And it's hard to absolutely deny that
it could be helpful in some situation. But my concern, as I keep pointing
out (grin), is the idea that just because someone agrees to stop if he or
she hears a safe word, that he or she will in fact stop. If you are
concerned about someone's judgment, you need to do _something_ to protect
yourself that's better than a word. If you have something backing up that
word, like a friend who will check on you regularly, then the safe word is
less dangerous. About Tom and lori's question: it's a good one, and I
think that's sometimes a real problem. I think that even if I agreed to a
safe word for some reason, I might violate that agreement if I felt that I
were being manipulated by someone using the word without good reason, and
I'm pretty damn careful. So I think the only answer is NOT to expect the
question of expansion of limits to be raised during the early parts of a
relationship, when trust has not been completely established. ga
(12,Kay B.) !
(12,john h.) ?
(12,Lisle) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! Allysse, are you ready now, or
shall we get back to you later? ga
Okay! Kay B, you have a comment? ga
(12,Kay B.) Yes, It seems to me that getting involved with someone whom
you do not trust is exceedingly foolish...safe word or no! But the trust
has to go both ways: the dom must be trusted to listen to the sub, and
the sub must be trusted not to misuse the safe word. As the relationship
escalates over time the safe word may be used less and less, but it is
always available when needed. ga
(12,Warren G.) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse, ta da! Your moment has arrived! ga
(12,:: Allysse ::) Best way for me to handle this is from personal
experience. I met Joel on here. I went to meet him after talking to him
for a long time on here. I trusted him but he was an unknown to me. I
had other safe features in place but I had the "safeword" also. This made
my first visit with Joel okay in my head but remember I had never met him.
I needed to know that there was a word that could be used to start the
communication. That is why I think the safeword is necessary in this type
of media D/s relationship just a small security blanket which may never be
used. GA
(12,MRD) !
(12,Kay B.) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse...it was delayed but well
worth waiting. John H, you have a question? ga
(12,john h.) the males? I know I'm not invulnerable, but it seems that
most of the stories you hear about Doms hurting subs and not heeding safe
words or whatever protection the sub has involve male Doms and female
subs. Also I like Allysse's method of "returning" the safe word to the
Dom from whence it came when the sub feels safe enough to do so. GA
(12,Tom and lori) ?
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, John. I suspect it applies to either
gender. Lisle, you have a comment? ga
(12,Lisle) The only time that I think a safeword is useful is during a
casual public scene. Neither party knows the other and the safeword
provides the safety margin. I gave Gina a safeword when I did a scene
with her in the Vault and I have done so in one other case and that is the
only time I have ever used it. Actually I think the safeword in a
relationship between two inexperienced people may be truly dangerous in
that the dominant seeks the safeword as sign of submission without trying
to understand the submissives physical and emotional state and the
submissve holds back on saying the safeword to keep from admitting
submission. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Lisle (very nicely said!). MRD,
your comment? ga
(12,MRD) OK. Allysse illustrated my point in her description of her
experiences. She said that she wasn't sure if she could trust Joel and
that having a safe word made her feel in her mind that it was OK to go
and see him. But what if Joel had been a psychopath? What if he had, in
fact, been untrustworthy? That safe word would have meant exactly
nothing, and Allysse's feeling that the trip was OK would have been dead
wrong. And possibly _deadly_ wrong. I realize that this is a "worst-
case scenario," but that is exactly my concern about the misleading nature
of safe words. To sum it up, a safe word is like a charm that a person
believes will protect him or her, but it will not. Those who believe in it
do so because they _want_ to believe that they can be completely safe,
which they cannot. But this belief may cause them _not_ to take pre-
cautions which might _actually_ serve to protect them, and that is the real
danger. Thank you. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, MRD! Kay B. your comment? ga
(12,Kay B.) Yes, I don't understand how one can give back a safe word
unless both partners have a total memory loss. Seems to me that the
meaning always stays attached to the word and the word is always available
to the sub. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Kay! Tom & lori, your question? ga
(12,Tom and lori) I was just wondering what Allysse meant when she said
she had other safety features? Thank you GA
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Allysse? Care to answer? ga
(12,:: Allysse ::) I had two friends who knew where I was and a large
bank roll for a motel. My friends knew where I was and I had a check in
time with them. I also had my two feet and rebox shoes *smile* GA
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Thanks, Allysse (grin). We'll have to wrap up
soon, folks. Anyone else wish to question or comment? ga
(12,Brett S.) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Brett, please go ahead. ga
(12,Brett S.) Thanks...just wanted to come down on the side of favoring
the use of safe words: would not have it any other way. GA
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) That's interesting, Brett... may I ask why? ga
(12,Brett S.) I hold that the relationship between dom and sub is both
voluntary and one of mutual trust...how can such a bond exist without at
least the provision for the sub to express herself when and if she is being
taken beyond her limits? GA
(12,Lisle) !
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Lisle, I suspect you wish to answer that.
Please go ahead. ga
(12,Lisle) Well...I think that simple communications verbal and noverbal
communication will accomplish the same objective. I frequently stop a
scene and ask how the subm issive is feeling and question carefully before
I go on. That presumes that the trust is there and the submissive is
going to be honest about his or her feelings. I also look at the damage
if any and I will often stop before the limits have been reached. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Brett, did you have a response? ga
(12,Brett S.) Of course...
(12,Lisle) <grin>
(12,Brett S.) I have considerable respect for Lisle, but in this instance,
I take exception. I have found that the use of the safe word actually
heightens the enjoyment of the submissive. Somehow, knowing that she can
free herself, if and when she wants to or needs to, allows for total
freedom to express herself, to give in to her most basic emotional
desire to please her Master. As a case in point, I have been with my
present submissive for almost 9 months and she has yet to even approach
using the safe word. I would not be without it. ga
(12,:: Angelique & Will ::) Okay, thanks, Brett. You should check the CO
transcript when it's posted. You'll find much of this was addressed
earlier. Our time is more than up! Thanks, everyone, for a good CO!!!
Please join us next week when Lisle will be our guest discussing People
Exchanging Power (PEP). And now, formal CO is....................
OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!